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[J.W.]

Note: This is for advanced players only of power exchange where there is a lot of trust between the players.

I would like to start a discussion about a serious topic; mind fucking. Now when I say mind fucking, I mean within the context of a power exchange relationship and specifically within the context of a scene.

Mind fucking is when you, as a top, have your bottom at your mercy and you then proceed to play with their senses to cause them to think that things are happening to them that aren't.

Example: They're blindfolded and bound and you are using a knife for edge play. However, this knife is dull so as not to cut them, but you've got something that will allow you to place warm water onto their skin where you've just 'cut' them, letting them feel their 'blood' go down their body.

Another example is the scene from Punisher with the lollipop.

As usual; safety always comes first and this also includes the emotional sanctity of the subs and bottoms.

May I have your thoughts?
_________________
Don't worry, it's only kinky once.

[littleMiss]

actually, one i've done is literally just doing calligraphy on their body. the cool of the paint and the designs is usually intruiging, especially if you ask them later what you wrote.

[ScorpioSub]

This is a really good topic. I promise to write a real response as soon as the computer I'm using the burn DVDs to get shit off my computer stops being a PITA and spitting out perfectly useable disks as unusable.

[ScorpioSub]

Ok, so here's my take on it...

Not my thing. I like knife play because I like the sensation, not because I'm afraid (the fear being based in logic or not) that the person I'm playing with could/would/might actually do real harm to me... I like breath play because of the control, not because I feaf that the person would actually cause me serious harm. I know that the people I play with wouldn't do so intentionally, and because i tend to play heavy, knowing that I can trust them in that way is important to me. Besides, the whole mind fuck thing frankly just doesn't do it for me.

When I bottom I do it for the sensations, for the way it makes me feel, for the feeling of pushing my limits or having them pushed, and for the feeling of having done well/pleased the person I'm playing with. When I submit to someone, it is a very special, very powerful thing for me, but having my head played with and the whole "he could hurt me if he wanted to" just aren't my things and aren't part of my BDSM interactions.

I don't mean to downplay the whole "mind fuck" aspect of BDSM. I know a lot of people who are really into it and I respect their kink and their right to be into what they're into (unless it involves, say, children). I've heard of some really cool mindfuck scenes, some of them done by close friends of mine, and I know that they can be really powerful and rewarding for those who engage in them.

My lack of interest in such scenes may be related to my lack of interest in role playing. I'm not sure. A lot of people are into Mommy/child, Daddy/child, Boss/secretary, etc type scenes whether they're kinky or "vanilla." For me, I guess that just isn't my kink. When I play I am who I am the person with whom I playing is the same person s/he was before the scene and will be after the scene. When I give up control to someone (whether it be physically in an SM play context or phsychologically in the context of a D/s relationship) it is me giving that control and my partner accepting it.

I'm probably not explaining it well. *Sigh*

As you can likey tell from the 3am posts last night/this morning, I didn't sleep at all, so I'm not sure how coherent I'm being.

I guess what I'm saying is this: For those who enjoy it, and if it is done responsibly, mind fuck type play can be rewarding and wonderfully intense for the people involved. I respect everyone's right to their own particular kinks and desires. I have mine and they have theirs. Of course, people engaging in that particular form of play have to be very much aware of the phychological limits and safety of their partner and respect them.

In my case is isn't that I don't trust my partners enough to engage in this sort of play, but perhaps that I trust them so much that I know they wouldn't intentionally cause any "real damage" to me, so it would never really be believable for me. It also just doesn't "do it for me."

Just my $.02.

[littleMiss]

for me, some aspects of the mental I like. I like the fact the imagination can wander and that one can learn about themselves. I don't really foray into the idea of making someone think that they are being cut, as I perfer not to draw blood whenever possible, though I do like the ability to make one learn. With what i had described above, it was with someone important to me, who had forgotten what is most important in life. The restraint and the text tantalized their body by sensation, but triggered the mind, making it more personal; there was a reminder in it for them.

[ScorpioSub]

[J.W.]

There are several aspects to mind fucking and I really don't want to isolate just one.

It could be said that dehumanizing a submissive by treating them like a pet and having them behave and act as an animal is another form of mind fucking. Same with Age play.

I'm not saying that these things should ever be done. I guess I see them more as acts of trust on the submissive's part to consent to them rather than the Top's ability to mind fuck his bottom.

Have you ever noticed that the more intense scenes are the ones where the script isn't written out?
_________________
Don't worry, it's only kinky once.

[ScorpioSub]

I always understood "mindfucks" to be something along the lines of the definitions I've cut-n-pasted below. Even more specifically, I'm used to hearing it in the context of a situation in which the bottom is made to believe that there is real risk of iminant danger or harm, even if there's little to no possibility thereof. I always associated the term with playing off the bottom's fears, inciting fear in the bottom, etc.

The definition JW is using, if I'm interpreting it correctly, seems to be much broader than the one to which I am accustomed.

In my experience and frame of reference, I've been aware of some of the things he specifically mentioned (dehuminizing play, age play, animal/pet play, etc.) as intensly psychological play to be sure, but not specifically within the realm of the mindfuck. However, regarding these things, I say that, if it's what a person is into, s/he should go for it. It's not my thing, but if it's yours (the general you here, not any reader specifically) then good for you. Enjoy your kink.

That said, as this is his thread, I will respectfully step aside and see where this discussion goes.

[littleMiss]

okay, so reading what i wrote before, i probably should have been less vague. Stupid Finals..... killing my brain function... but i digress. The scenes I like can be as simple as baffling them by blindfolding them and tantalizing their skin, or more complex. What I should have said is that I am not experienced at edgeplay (though i know a really good acrylic fingernail can recreate an edge sensation). For me, my favorite part is when both people not only get enjoyment physically from it, but someone also learns something. To me, learning something (like trust, love, respect, quiet) is a huge part of who I am, and that comes through when I play. I know this is probably making even less sense, but oh well... i have to go back to papers now.

[ScorpioSub]

LOL I totally understand the finals thing... I'm actually listening to a recording of a microbiology lab review for my exam tomorrow. Ack!

As far as definitions....

Edge play, in my experience refers to "risky" or "more dangerous" play than the majority of people are comfortable with rather than refering to any actual "edges" (like of a knife). Edge play tends, again in my experience, to include things like breath play, suspension from skin hooks, and other stuff that can result in resious damage/death if done by people who don't know what they're doing or are careless. This is where you really get into the issue of trust. Do you trust your partner/the top? Do you trust their skills? Do you trust him/her to admit it if a mistake is made and do something about it rather than let you get hurt? Of course, those questions are from the bottom's perspective. LOL

I'm going to go back to studying and keep my fingers crossed that I've not pissed anyone off.

I really don't mean to, I swear!

[ScorpioSub]

LOL I totally understand the finals thing... I'm actually listening to a recording of a microbiology lab review for my exam tomorrow. Ack!

As far as definitions....

Edge play, in my experience refers to "risky" or "more dangerous" play than the majority of people are comfortable with rather than refering to any actual "edges" (like of a knife). Edge play tends, again in my experience, to include things like breath play, suspension from skin hooks, and other stuff that can result in resious damage/death if done by people who don't know what they're doing or are careless. This is where you really get into the issue of trust. Do you trust your partner/the top? Do you trust their skills? Do you trust him/her to admit it if a mistake is made and do something about it rather than let you get hurt? Of course, those questions are from the bottom's perspective. LOL

I'm going to go back to studying and keep my fingers crossed that I've not pissed anyone off.

I really don't mean to, I swear!

[littleMiss]

heelllooooo cocktail hour.... my brain has gone to mush. So I'm still learning definitions, that makes a little more sense now. I was thinking that edge play was just referring to the knife bit. duh. With regards to topping/ bottoming, i'm usually topping, and he likes breath play, though thats beside the point..

[ScorpioSub]

Definitions are fun...

And are usually under widespread debate LOL

[ScorpioSub]

Yeah, I got that you mostly top. See, i was listening, er, reading. LOL

I however, mostly bottom. I've topped on occasion, but it isn't really my thing and I don't think it is particularly fair to top someone if i'm not into it because it seems, to me anyway, like i'm cheating the bottom. Just like I make it a point to only bottom to people who are topping because theyg et something out of it too. I just try to only speak from my experience, because I figure that if i'm gonna risk pissing people off by being a big mouth, at least I can really say "in my opinion/experience" and mean it. LOL

[littleMiss]

no worries! you cannot really piss me off, that is, unless you're my pet, accidentally blowing up my car..... but thats a different story. Though, I may want to pick your brain to get more understanding about the bottoming thing... he is unable to physically be on top, and prefers to be submissive anyway, but I want to know what the experience is like for him, or why he seems to like it so much. I have a dominating streak, so it works for us, but this is still fairly new to me.. ideas?